мой комент для анхел05 у Чихи

tandem_bike — 15.01.2016 я ее сначала не поняла и оскорбилась, потом поняла и извинилась.

контекст: Чиха заявила что 1(один) народ - http://cheeha.livejournal.com/887618.html - "Этнические украинцы, которые граждане Украины, составляют ОДИН народ с этническими русскими, евреями, татарами и пр., которые живут в Украине и являются её гражданами.", а так же "Этнические русские, которые из России, составляют один народ с татарами, башкирами, осетинами, чеченцами, бурятами, якутами и многими другими, но это совсем ДРУГОЙ народ, чем тот, который живёт на территории Украины. И отношения между этими ДВУМЯ народами сейчас довольно плохие по объективным причинам."

я ее попросила все же не записывать в украинский народ тамошних евреев, пока они сами не заявили что они украинский народ. и также не записывать татар в русский народ. и что ее понятие народа - легитимное, но чисто политическое.

Анхел спросила - "А американские выходцы из Мексики или даже афроамериканцы - они один народ с вами, или как?" и я сильно окрысилась, а потом подумала и абсолютно честно ей ответила.
вот мой ответ ей, spelling corrected, content augmented:


okay, i did a little thinking and i see where i misunderstood you.

i do not question that afroamericans and a significant number of hispanics are "natives" as much as anybody else in america.

but you see, america is special. it is no longer a monoethnic nation, and hardly ever was that, though there was, until the social revolution of 1960s-1970s, basically an "old rich white anglo protestant male" ruling class. however the whole concept of new america - and i am no fan of the good old times - is inimical to separating citizens into ethnically or religiously different groups.


now, i DO question that jews in the Ukraine OR Russia are really natives. i may be wrong. however BOTH Ukraine and Russia have a strong ethnocentric/nationalistic streak, and that makes whoever does not belong or does not pretend to belong to the titular nation - a second-class citizen in terms of 1) employment, 2) marriageability, and 3) electoral power (to be elected to a public office).

why i say so - both nations, as in, ethnicities and cultures, ukranians and russians, are at baseline virulently antisemitic, and in case of russians, even more virulently xenophobic. i don't need to tell you that this statement is a sweeping generalization that does not apply to individual people we know, but ... it applies to an average person. i am not accusing YOU, a ukranian, of antisemitism. i am saying that culturally/historically - antisemitism is an integral part of ukranian ethnic identity and statehood. and of russian ethnic identity and statehood. to object to this would be - to try and erase history. american trouble with the White Racist Male issue comes to mind. racism is not eraseable. no matter how many monuments you pull down, and how many colleges you rename. it just needs to be acknowledged. ditto - antisemitism is as inherent and native to both russian and ukranian statehood/culture/literature/life, as racism is to american statehood/culture/literature/life, past and present. so your comparison was actually not that toxic, and i accept that.

i do not see how 26 or whatever years of life after the USSR can erase the traits that persisted for CENTURIES. in America, we are certainly trying, so far with marginal success...

i hope you do not see me as a russophobe or ukrainophobe, like some LJ insects do, you know them when you see them.

i am just... realistic. to continue your analogy - being black in america confers a disadvantage and often a danger to life, there is alas no way to disprove this.

and i do not believe that - unless a jew thoroughly assimilates, dissolves, forgets he or she is a jew - that they will in any foreseeable future be a "native" in either of those two countries. same goes for France, another place with a strong cultural/nationalistic base. to some degree, it is true in other european countries as well. to a lesser degree.

dixi. ;-)

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